How can we live a good life on one planet with over seven billion people? This course will explore greening the economy on four levels – individual, business, city, and nation. We will look at the relationships between these levels and give many practical examples of the complexities and solutions across the levels. Scandinavia, a pioneering place advancing sustainability and combating climate change, is a unique starting point for learning about greening the economy. We will learn from many initiatives attempted in Scandinavia since the 1970s, which are all potentially helpful and useful for other countries and contexts. The International Institute for Industrial Environmental Economics (IIIEE) at Lund University is an international centre of excellence on strategies for sustainable solutions. The IIIEE is ideally suited to understand and explain the interdisciplinary issues in green economies utilising the diverse disciplinary backgrounds of its international staff. The IIIEE has been researching and teaching on sustainability and greener economies since the 1990s and it has extensive international networks connecting with a variety of organizations. 5-8 hours/week 5 weeks duration 40 films 20 teachers
Bonus interview: Extended producer responsibility
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Greening the Economy: Lessons from Scandinavia
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National policies
Finally, in the fifth module, we look at how national governments can establish policies to promote green economy across the different levels (individual, business, city, national) discussed in this course. In this module, we discuss how national level policies affect cities, business, and individuals, as well as the challenges for national level policies to influence other levels, including the international sphere. Finally, we will discuss whether national policies from Scandinavia can work in other contexts
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Dr. Kes McCormickAssociate Professor and Assistant Head
International Institute for Industrial Environmental Economics
Dr. Luis MundacaProfessor
International Institute for Industrial Environmental Economics
Prof. Oksana MontProfessor
International Institute for Industrial Environmental Economics
Prof. Lena NeijProfessor and Director
International Institute for Industrial Environmental Economics
Dr. Thomas LindhqvistAssociate Professor
International Institute for Industrial Environmental Economics
Dr. Håkan RodheAssociate Professor
International Institute for Industrial Environmental Economics
Dr. Peter ArnfalkAssociate Professor
The International Institute for Industrial Environmental Economics
Dr. Charlotte LeireLecturer
International Institute for Industrial Environmental Economics
[MUSIC]
Welcome to the topic of extended producer responsiblity.
We are sitting here and together with two of my colleagues, Naoko Tojo.
>> Hello.
>> And Panate Manomaivibool.
>> Hi.
>> We are going to introduce you to the topic.
You're probably sitting in front of a computer or maybe a iPhone or something.
And if you look into this,
you're going to realize that this is really a complex product.
It contains a lot of different materials, some of these are actually toxic.
And the day you decide that I can't use it anymore, what will happen to this product?
Will it end up in a landfill?
Will it contaminate?
What will happen?
It's the sum of issues which we are going to look into today, actually.
You can look at the map and you will see that there is legislation, legislation
which is built on extent of reducer responsibility in very many different
countries, and these are some of the things we would like to share with you.
Share what we have been doing, how we started in the early 1990s and
how we continue with research education today.
>> So, tell us.
You mentioned 1991, but maybe you could, do you remember how it started,
the whole thing, producer responsibility?
>> Mm-hm.
Well actually you have to go back to 1980s to understand what happened.
In the 1980s we had a lot of discussion around what should we do with waste.
And there was a lot of problems in this area.
And one of the main problems was, how should we finance it?
So municipalities in Sweden, in the US, wherever, were searching for money.
They tried to do a lot of recycling but it cost them money.
And, at the same time we started to understand that products are,
throughout the lifecycle, a real problem.
And I was combining these two things.
And in 1990, I wrote a report for the Swedish minister environment and
that was really when the work's extended producer responsibility came into writing.
So actually we wrote it in Swedish first, we called it [FOREIGN].
And then in the report, I translated it to English.
So it's, it's one of the few, I think, concepts we've started in Swedish and
then it became English afterwards.
>> Yeah. >> And at the same time,
we saw countries who were starting to do something.
We had Germany who started to legislate about packaging.
And ideas were much the same as we had in Sweden.
Ideas was that you would make the producers responsible.
And by making them responsible it will also be
interesting to change the products.
And you will get access to money.
>> Mm-hm.
>> Money which you could have to build up a recycling system.
And when Germany's doing this, what you see is that
they manage to get recycling rates which we have never seen before.
New types of packaging materials which are suddenly being collected, and
at levels which I couldn't dream about to be honest.
And the most interesting thing is probably that what we
see is also a change in the packaging.
I have this favorite diagram here which is like, showing that we managed
to decouple the economy, the economic development from the amount of packaging.
And it starts in 1989 and then we can see that it should have grown together with,
the economy but not the packaging which we are using but actually it's declining.
>> What's the 99 one that we saw here, is it the year when the [CROSSTALK].
>> That's the year of when the legislation is decided and comes into force.
>> So it's a big drop.
>> Yeah it's a considerable drop and for every year it kind of grows and
grows, and still today you are using less packaging material
as the German consumer venue did in 1991.
>> Mm.
>> And that's quite amazing.
It's a big step.
And then we have seen, how you develop this.
>> Mm-hm.
>> And we have met a number of problems, in doing that.
And that's really interesting to follow along,
but what we have been trying to do for 20 years now.
>> Perhaps you could elaborate a bit on what happened in Sweden,
I heard something about that early works of the cars that I
don't know much about myself, that I wasn't involved in, but.
>> Well, I think we were very fortunate.
Because I started work with, the ministry.
But, the industry was really interested.
And we managed to convince the car industry that we should work with them.
And in doing that, we saw that cars are not packaging.
They are different.
>> Yeah. >> Mm-hm.
>> And you needed different ways of working, and
together with the car industry, the representatives in Sweden,
so not only the Swedish companies but all the big companies in the world.
We actually managed to develop a new model, a model would,
would make it also interesting for the car industry to make improvements.
That felt like a big step.
Then we have realized that things are not that easy and
you still need to develop, but as we go along.
And I think that's something which is just really worthwhile talking about.
>> So we heard from Thomas about the early days in Europe.
But coming from Thailand I would also interested in
what would happen in Japan our, you know, developed neighbor.
Because I think you have a lot of things coming in Japan around that time, and so
can you tell us more?
>> Sure. The introduction for
me to the producer responsiblity was actually to come here, but
then I realized there are different things happening in Japan.
One was the area of packaging that Thomas talked about which had a different
implementation path, but from the work that's interesting to discuss here,
is to do with the electronics.
And as you know Japan is quite, quite sort of mountainous countries.
75% covered with mountain surrounded by sea.
Lots of people so obvious problem there is to do with the landfill space.
>> Mm-hm.
>> We're conserving a lot of products and many of the products there,
produced in Japan.
So the idea is how to deal with these piles of say refrigerators,
washing machines, air conditioners, TVs and those big machines.
So the producer responsibility came in to place and
was enforced in 2001 for those large appliances.
And the producers have been very much engaged
in developing the recycling facilities.
They own the facility, they run the facility, etc.
I got an interesting opportunity at that time in 1999 to
compare the situation in Japan with some of the development in Europe.
And because at that time there was also development among the European countries,
both individual countries, but also EU wide, to develop legislation to deal
with this electronic waste which is also becoming an increasing problem in Europe.
The approach they took is a little bit different from, say,
the situation in Japan where they, as I mentioned, focus on large appliances.
Here in Europe, instead they went for a much sort of wider scope.
Covering not only those large appliances, but also cameras, mobile phones,
computers, vending machines, medical equipment.
So, basically all the electronics and electrical, and the electronic equipment.
And the approach taken is a little bit different in that, that.
In a nutshell, instead of having sort of different producers establishing their own
recycling plants and so forth, in Europe they went more for a collective solution.
Meaning that different producers gather together and
they try to establish a common sort of physical infrastructure to
manage the end of life products that even producers produce.
>> I see.
>> I think one of the interesting things also was that this was an example
where one of the big companies went in and sponsored a master thesis work.
Because.
>> That's. >> Erickson, in Japan.
Their office in Japan actually sponsored Malcom's work.
>> Yep.
>> Together with the Organization of Economic Corporation and Development.
But something which we have seen afterwards also, that we get
companies like Nokia were interested, what is for development in country, et cetera.
Our students have been doing studies in various countries for them.
And that's been very nice.
>> Yeah, it was a very good feeling to
realize that actually this is an interesting thing, thing for the company.
It is interesting for an organization like OECD and
then to see further development around that is very exciting.
>> Hm.
>> Yup.
>> Yup.
That means that they're interested in really what is happening in,
on the ground.
And to see what they can do about it.
>> And it's exciting to be part of the development which
is happening when you're doing it.
Not just the talk about it and the subject afterwards but actually be part of.
>> In the process.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah.
>> That's the very nice part.
>> But if for now ago you mentioned that there have been done different in term of
interpretation and implementation of EPR in many countries.
What we have from developing country when we look at the system of this program.
What they are interested in is whether it affected to what actually you
really want in terms of recycling and design change.
We have seen some example in packaging.
>> Mm-hm. >> What about more
complex product like electronics?
Have you seen any change?
>> Yeah, I'd be able to say yes, definitely to some part.
Especially when it comes to the collection and
recycling I think it has been a big improvement.
>> Mm-hm.
>> When you look at again the situation for
instance in countries like Japan you really see increases in the,
in the collection, but also in recycling and also recycling system.
The same can also be seen in Europe.
I mean, it took awhile for European countries,
especially those who didn't have a system in their funds, to develop a system.
And those countries with the system in advance,
I mean they were rather quick in adapting and
so forth, but still they have struggles, especially for smaller products.
How to collect them efficiently,
as opposed to bigger products where people want to get rid of it.
So it is a little bit easier to handle that.
But all in all we can say that at least when system starts to be implemented,
collection is a less of a problem than.
>> Mm.
>> Than other parts.
And the other parts, interesting part would be to do with the design change.
>> Mm. >> This is at the end of the,
the why producers become being involved in the part of this process.
And the positive example we can give is say some of
the earlier development when the legislation was say anticipated.
And many of the again the Japanese farms, but not only the Japanese firms,
say the European firms such as Electrolux,
different certain computer companies and so forth.
They start to change the design of the products.
Say, the number of plastics that are used in one products has been reduced.
>> Mm. >> To a great deal from, say,
three digits, to two digits, to one digit.
The number of screws that are used, say the direction
of the screws is from, from all different directions, to one direction.
To ease the dismantlement the number of units that are used in
product has been reduced as well.
Some of the producers start to include the recycled materials in
the development of the new products.
So that's a very positive sort of effect.
One of the challenges we face is to, how to measure that.
Because the innovative nature of the design changes upstream does
not allow us to really say, okay, these are the changes we want to see.
We want producers to decide on that.
That makes it very challenging for us to understand.
And major those changes.
But there are many of those examples we can give.
[CROSSTALK]. >> I think this is
really a problem for us.
>> Yeah.
>> And to be honest I'm, the only study which was really
systematic was when [INAUDIBLE] did her PHD.
>> Mm-hm.
>> And I hear that during meetings out of a word but
I'm like, we need more of this type of work.
>> After dramatic effort.
>> [CROSSTALK] Yeah. You have a lot of
these examples from various companies.
You're right in a small case, Ericsson did this, Toyota did that,
and et cetera, but to get a systematic study seems to be very difficult, so it's.
>> Yeah.
That's a challenge that we would love to continue to pursue farther [LAUGH].
But at the moment, it has been quite difficult to do that.
>> Yeah.
And then you have the other part of it is a little bit how you organize yourself.
>> Yeah. >> Sure.
>> Because what you run into is this question about
if you don't have this collective systems, what will you have?
How will the Individual companies act, and
we get what we call the individual producer responsibility.
But how would that look in practice?
And, and you see government people who don't dare to decide about this.
Because we don't, they can't see it in front of them.
>> Yeah.
>> And then you have some company people who are very afraid of it.
And then you have some company people who, who likes the idea and
want to do something in this.
And it was nice because the next PhD which we had
remember Chris is really about, how could you organize this?
>> Yep.
>> It is a big challenge.
>> But he was talking a lot with different companies and
trying to understand these solutions right.
It was an interesting attempt definitely, to understand it from,
by engaging himself into the, world of producers and try to understand it.
Also looking into the text of the directive and understanding.
>> The law and the government, the industry.
>> Yeah.
>> Imagining the possibility that the end of it is going to cause it to
be part of the EU relation of the.
Yeah. >> Directive on waste electronic and
electrical equipment and give some input to us because Europe
a bit afraid of us and they needed input during that process.
So that was nice to be able to be a part of that.
>> Yeah, definitely.
The world, the individual producer responsibility at least came.
Going into the jargon.
>> Mm.
>> Of the discussion then.
>> Mm-hm. >> So that was very nice.
>> Mm.
>> Probably should also talk just a little bit about our discussion together with
the NGO groups that we had, that I also very supportive of these activities.
Because an interesting situation that happened then was that not
only the producers, but also the NGOs.
>> The NGO.
>> All are very much supportive that, or the other way around,
they are working together and that was an interesting situation where they
really want to pursue the individual responsibility and
they work together with Chris and many other researchers working on this area.
>> I must confess that there were many years when I thought,
this is something for the richer countries.
>> Mm. >> Where you have this overconsumption,
we are buying more and more all the time, and I didn't really spend much time
thinking about the developing countries, but they changed.
Didn't it or not?
>> It definitely changed right now, especially if we look into late requests.
Now you have seen China just have the ordinance in 2009 and
it will be implemented this year in 2011.
And other mentoring developing country, like India, Argentina, Thailand,
Vietnam, we are considering having a Draft Law on this problem to address it.
And one of the kind of evident that it have been kind of getting attention in
developing countries is the attention, is getting it translated into Chinese,
isn't it?
>> Mm.
>> So definitely there is a, an interest over there.
And I would say that part of that might be what policy analysts might call the,
the When you have the policy in developed country,
developing country also start to think about the issue.
>> Mm.
>> And when we look into our own country in less advanced economies.
We realize that, well, although we haven't consumed that much of the product,
like you in developed countries, the problem might be even more serious.
Outgrowing.
So first in Japan, you're talking about the,
it consume a lot of space and it will go to your landfield.
>> Mm. >> And
there is a concern maybe, in the United States, that when you put that
television in the landfill the chemical activity in the landfill might leak down,
like, into the underground water.
>> Mm. >> Well,
when we look into developing countries.
There's no such a thing in landfield.
>> Mm. >> But
people who have, who get a hand on it, they realize that there are material in
these electronic product, like copper and steel and they try to recover that.
And sometimes they use kind of inappropriate method like, the quickest
way if you want to get copper out of this electronic component maybe you burned it.
>> Mm.
>> Or you release it with a strong acid.
>> Mm. >> And
then you get rid of the solution into to the environment.
And an even more serious thing you know, you put it in a landfield.
>> Mm. >> So we start to realize that, okay,
we have this problem of inappropriate recycling.
Recycling is not necessarily mean something good for environment.
>> Mm.
>> And we also kind of look into the future.
We project that we will have this problem,
a big problem in the future maybe in this decade or the next.
>> [COUGH].
>> Because 30 years back, only 20% of Thai households enjoyed television.
>> Mm. >> Nowadays, every household has one or
two mobile phone, ten years back, only maybe 5% of them have it.
Now, almost everyone have it.
And so on and so forth.
So this is coming.
So. >> Mm.
>> If you haven't prepared ourselves or equipped ourselves, we
will have a big problem in the future, and our municipality are not as fortunate as.
>> Mm. >> In developed countries,
that have passed recycling programs and have, has experience, many years.
>> I've, I've found it astonishing, how big part of
the budget in many developing countries with city budget goes to waste management?
>> Mm. >> And
still the quality of waste management is very low.
>> Mm-hm. >> So if you want to prove it,
it must be very difficult to raise money for this.
>> Sure, now they cannot even kind of provide you basic service like removal and
disposal so get it out of sight, out of mind.
Even that is difficult.
>> Mm.
>> So extended producer responsibility has been an option as an alternative or a new
solution that may kind of shift away from these kind of municipal responsibilities.
And I think that's the reason why that developing country not interested into it.
>> Mm-hm. >> Mm-hm.
>> Maybe, I mean, you were working in quite much in the field but
first in India and Thailand, right?
I mean, how did it go?
Was it easy to collect information?
How did you work together with the government and
the different stakeholder groups there?
>> Well, I would say that it quite challenging, and
our idea is to, when we, this this report-
>> Mm-hm.
>> I think our idea was for us to,
to see whether it's possible to have this kind of system in developing countries.
>> Mm. >> And we find some challenges,
like lack of information or unreliable, unsystematic data.
That you have to kind of get, get yourself a, around, around the thing.
And then there is, it's not a new problem.
>> Mm. >> You also have the problem of
some producers try to kind of cheat out of the system in developed country.
>> Yeah. >> But the magnitude and
the scale and the complexity of the issue might be even more in
developing countries when you have a counterfeit product.
You know, something that looks like Sony but
it's not like exactly Sony when you look closer into, who is the producer of that?
>> Mm.
>> Can you catch it and then bring to the system?
>> Mm.
>> So it's more complex and that is a some challenges.
And I think we are quite fortunate that we can work with, companies and also NGO's.
>> Mm-hm. >> In this case Green Peace to want to,
spread this concept.
>> Mm. >> And to see the practical idea and
possibilities of transferring it to developing countries.
>> Mm-hm. How was it in Argentina?
You go there to [CROSSTALK].
>> [COUGH].
>> With some stakeholders there, as well.
>> No, I mean,
it's, it's very interesting to see how different countries work in this.
>> Mm. >> And
you really kind of see that something like a standard produce responsibility is
not one thing.
>> Mm-hm. Mm.
>> It has to be adjusted to the country.
And it's not only if you're Argentina compared to Sweden, but
it's like Sweden compared to Germany or something.
>> Mm-hm.
Mm. >> Sweden compared to Japan.
>> Mm-hm. >> True.
>> Mm-hm.
>> You need to understand the local circumstances and
make it work in a good way in most countries.
>> Yeah. >> I think that is
a very important part of it.
>> Yeah.
>> I think it's fun to produce reports like [CROSSTALK].
>> [LAUGH]. >> Produce reports in Spanish,
produce reports in Thai.
>> In Thai.
Yep.
>> That's be something which was very nice to do.
>> Yep. >> [INAUDIBLE].
>> So, it's fantastic.
This whole thing has been happening for 20 years now, or even longer.
But, and then I think there are many other things we can still research on.
And that's another interesting part of it, which also sort of suggest the challenges.
I think it might be one of the big challenges especially now at the moment
in very developed countries is to do with how to establish this what we called.
>> Individual producer responsibility.
Because there, we need to find a good solution where, for
instance, a physical infrastructure is sort of done collectively.
Managed collectively.
But the financing is individually, sort of managed or sort of paid.
And that is, I think the most difficult part.
And Chris has me working a lot on that, I have been trying to look into that,
all of us, and we are teaching and discussing with students.
I always say it's a million dollar question.
You, if one of them or all of them could come up with a solution, we'd be so happy.
But that's one of the challenges that we need to over, overcome,
I think, and that's a challenge for the future.
>> I think in the, in my opinion, as I'm working a lot with developing countries,
I think we have not yet
been in that stage to, to, to think on how we can influence the system.
But maybe this is like, in 1990s when you are in Europe, how to get it start.
How can we negotiate with these kind of sub-optimal conditions that we have in
developing countries.
Like free rider and informal sector in recycling, import, export.
Those kind of issue we have to, to work with.
I have been working to a certain extinct with the Thai government to help them
in gathering, kind of, basic information.
And also drafting the law, so that, that, that, really interesting.
And I think not only the government, but the in, industry.
>> Mm. >> The companies,
like multinational companies that sell their product in developing countries.
They also want to know about what can be the solution.
Is the government solution is the only one?
>> Mm. >> Mm.
>> Or they can kind of com into the,
the, the situation, make it better for the environment and also for their interests.
And I think it has been a really good process that we
can have some masters student-
>> Mm-hm. >> Working with a company like Nokia in,
I think in, what, what the country, in-
>> I think it was in Argentina and also in Kenya.
>> In Kenya. >> Yeah, it was.
So that is, it's good to see that in practice,
we're also trying to develop a certain kind of solution.
>> Yes. >> What do you think Thomas,
in the future?
>> Well, it's something like, in the beginning,
when you start something like this, you think about the perfect system.
And you look into the principle and
beyond, cyber producers would be responsible.
And responsibility means like all types of responsibilities.
And then you have a legislator, and of course they take something of it, but
some other things they don't put into the legislation.
>> Mm-hm. Mm.
>> For whatever reason.
And you get this imperfect systems.
And what we see today in Europe and we see it in North America and Canada,
we see part of it in Japan is that you have these systems where it's not sure
that the producers is actually paying all his costs and taking this responsibility.
But municipalities are varied, and they take varied role, and
you, you come into a situation where, who is actually paying for what?
>> Yeah.
>> And do we get these incentives for change which we are looking for?
Do we get those efficient systems?
>> Mm-hm.
>> I, I think this is something where we need to spend more time.
And I have been writing small things for
Swedish waste management association and it's really curious and
we are going to look into it on a national level here in Sweden.
The question is do we back a bit,
do we change the ideas or do we find ways that you actually implement them?
More close to the leading ideas of producer's responsibility.
>> Mm.
>> Mm. >> And that's something I think will be
there for the next years, something which we can have more
PhDs and we can have masters and we can have articles and everything.
This, it's a good area. >> Yeah.
>> Of research.
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