Also looking into the text of the directive and understanding.
>> The law and the government, the industry.
>> Yeah.
>> Imagining the possibility that the end of it is going to cause it to
be part of the EU relation of the.
Yeah. >> Directive on waste electronic and
electrical equipment and give some input to us because Europe
a bit afraid of us and they needed input during that process.
So that was nice to be able to be a part of that.
>> Yeah, definitely.
The world, the individual producer responsibility at least came.
Going into the jargon.
>> Mm.
>> Of the discussion then.
>> Mm-hm. >> So that was very nice.
>> Mm.
>> Probably should also talk just a little bit about our discussion together with
the NGO groups that we had, that I also very supportive of these activities.
Because an interesting situation that happened then was that not
only the producers, but also the NGOs.
>> The NGO.
>> All are very much supportive that, or the other way around,
they are working together and that was an interesting situation where they
really want to pursue the individual responsibility and
they work together with Chris and many other researchers working on this area.
>> I must confess that there were many years when I thought,
this is something for the richer countries.
>> Mm. >> Where you have this overconsumption,
we are buying more and more all the time, and I didn't really spend much time
thinking about the developing countries, but they changed.
Didn't it or not?
>> It definitely changed right now, especially if we look into late requests.
Now you have seen China just have the ordinance in 2009 and
it will be implemented this year in 2011.
And other mentoring developing country, like India, Argentina, Thailand,
Vietnam, we are considering having a Draft Law on this problem to address it.
And one of the kind of evident that it have been kind of getting attention in
developing countries is the attention, is getting it translated into Chinese,
isn't it?
>> Mm.
>> So definitely there is a, an interest over there.
And I would say that part of that might be what policy analysts might call the,
the When you have the policy in developed country,
developing country also start to think about the issue.
>> Mm.
>> And when we look into our own country in less advanced economies.
We realize that, well, although we haven't consumed that much of the product,
like you in developed countries, the problem might be even more serious.
Outgrowing.
So first in Japan, you're talking about the,
it consume a lot of space and it will go to your landfield.
>> Mm. >> And
there is a concern maybe, in the United States, that when you put that
television in the landfill the chemical activity in the landfill might leak down,
like, into the underground water.
>> Mm. >> Well,
when we look into developing countries.
There's no such a thing in landfield.
>> Mm. >> But
people who have, who get a hand on it, they realize that there are material in
these electronic product, like copper and steel and they try to recover that.
And sometimes they use kind of inappropriate method like, the quickest
way if you want to get copper out of this electronic component maybe you burned it.
>> Mm.
>> Or you release it with a strong acid.
>> Mm. >> And
then you get rid of the solution into to the environment.
And an even more serious thing you know, you put it in a landfield.
>> Mm. >> So we start to realize that, okay,
we have this problem of inappropriate recycling.
Recycling is not necessarily mean something good for environment.
>> Mm.
>> And we also kind of look into the future.
We project that we will have this problem,
a big problem in the future maybe in this decade or the next.
>> [COUGH].
>> Because 30 years back, only 20% of Thai households enjoyed television.
>> Mm. >> Nowadays, every household has one or
two mobile phone, ten years back, only maybe 5% of them have it.
Now, almost everyone have it.
And so on and so forth.
So this is coming.
So. >> Mm.
>> If you haven't prepared ourselves or equipped ourselves, we
will have a big problem in the future, and our municipality are not as fortunate as.
>> Mm. >> In developed countries,
that have passed recycling programs and have, has experience, many years.
>> I've, I've found it astonishing, how big part of
the budget in many developing countries with city budget goes to waste management?
>> Mm. >> And
still the quality of waste management is very low.
>> Mm-hm. >> So if you want to prove it,
it must be very difficult to raise money for this.
>> Sure, now they cannot even kind of provide you basic service like removal and
disposal so get it out of sight, out of mind.
Even that is difficult.
>> Mm.
>> So extended producer responsibility has been an option as an alternative or a new
solution that may kind of shift away from these kind of municipal responsibilities.
And I think that's the reason why that developing country not interested into it.
>> Mm-hm. >> Mm-hm.
>> Maybe, I mean, you were working in quite much in the field but
first in India and Thailand, right?
I mean, how did it go?
Was it easy to collect information?
How did you work together with the government and
the different stakeholder groups there?
>> Well, I would say that it quite challenging, and
our idea is to, when we, this this report-
>> Mm-hm.
>> I think our idea was for us to,
to see whether it's possible to have this kind of system in developing countries.
>> Mm. >> And we find some challenges,
like lack of information or unreliable, unsystematic data.
That you have to kind of get, get yourself a, around, around the thing.
And then there is, it's not a new problem.
>> Mm. >> You also have the problem of
some producers try to kind of cheat out of the system in developed country.
>> Yeah. >> But the magnitude and
the scale and the complexity of the issue might be even more in
developing countries when you have a counterfeit product.
You know, something that looks like Sony but
it's not like exactly Sony when you look closer into, who is the producer of that?
>> Mm.
>> Can you catch it and then bring to the system?
>> Mm.
>> So it's more complex and that is a some challenges.
And I think we are quite fortunate that we can work with, companies and also NGO's.
>> Mm-hm. >> In this case Green Peace to want to,
spread this concept.
>> Mm. >> And to see the practical idea and
possibilities of transferring it to developing countries.
>> Mm-hm. How was it in Argentina?
You go there to [CROSSTALK].
>> [COUGH].
>> With some stakeholders there, as well.
>> No, I mean,
it's, it's very interesting to see how different countries work in this.
>> Mm. >> And
you really kind of see that something like a standard produce responsibility is
not one thing.
>> Mm-hm. Mm.
>> It has to be adjusted to the country.
And it's not only if you're Argentina compared to Sweden, but
it's like Sweden compared to Germany or something.
>> Mm-hm.
Mm. >> Sweden compared to Japan.
>> Mm-hm. >> True.
>> Mm-hm.
>> You need to understand the local circumstances and
make it work in a good way in most countries.
>> Yeah. >> I think that is
a very important part of it.
>> Yeah.
>> I think it's fun to produce reports like [CROSSTALK].
>> [LAUGH]. >> Produce reports in Spanish,
produce reports in Thai.
>> In Thai.
Yep.
>> That's be something which was very nice to do.
>> Yep. >> [INAUDIBLE].
>> So, it's fantastic.
This whole thing has been happening for 20 years now, or even longer.
But, and then I think there are many other things we can still research on.
And that's another interesting part of it, which also sort of suggest the challenges.
I think it might be one of the big challenges especially now at the moment
in very developed countries is to do with how to establish this what we called.
>> Individual producer responsibility.
Because there, we need to find a good solution where, for
instance, a physical infrastructure is sort of done collectively.
Managed collectively.
But the financing is individually, sort of managed or sort of paid.
And that is, I think the most difficult part.
And Chris has me working a lot on that, I have been trying to look into that,
all of us, and we are teaching and discussing with students.
I always say it's a million dollar question.
You, if one of them or all of them could come up with a solution, we'd be so happy.
But that's one of the challenges that we need to over, overcome,
I think, and that's a challenge for the future.
>> I think in the, in my opinion, as I'm working a lot with developing countries,
I think we have not yet
been in that stage to, to, to think on how we can influence the system.
But maybe this is like, in 1990s when you are in Europe, how to get it start.
How can we negotiate with these kind of sub-optimal conditions that we have in
developing countries.
Like free rider and informal sector in recycling, import, export.
Those kind of issue we have to, to work with.
I have been working to a certain extinct with the Thai government to help them
in gathering, kind of, basic information.
And also drafting the law, so that, that, that, really interesting.
And I think not only the government, but the in, industry.
>> Mm. >> The companies,
like multinational companies that sell their product in developing countries.
They also want to know about what can be the solution.
Is the government solution is the only one?
>> Mm. >> Mm.
>> Or they can kind of com into the,
the, the situation, make it better for the environment and also for their interests.
And I think it has been a really good process that we
can have some masters student-
>> Mm-hm. >> Working with a company like Nokia in,
I think in, what, what the country, in-
>> I think it was in Argentina and also in Kenya.
>> In Kenya. >> Yeah, it was.
So that is, it's good to see that in practice,
we're also trying to develop a certain kind of solution.
>> Yes. >> What do you think Thomas,
in the future?
>> Well, it's something like, in the beginning,
when you start something like this, you think about the perfect system.